Chris Wetherbee — Managing Director and Head of Transportation & Shipping Research, Wells Fargo
Hey, thanks for the morning, guys. Maybe we could pick up on the productivity, Mark. Obviously, the 150 is the target for 2025. Maybe we could kind of break that down into buckets so we can understand where we can kind of source that. And then if you sort of zoom out a little bit and think bigger picture over the next maybe couple of years, what you think the potential in OR is? You guys have made significant strides from where you were a year ago. I guess as you think about sort of the next couple of years, what do you see as the opportunity?
Ed Elkins — Chief Marketing Officer, Norfolk Southern Corporation
Hey, thanks, Chris. Appreciate the question. I'll have John kind of talk to you a little bit about where we're seeing the runway on productivity, but we're really excited and confident because we laid out the 250 target for 2024. We exceeded that. We think we can exceed. We know we can exceed the 2025 target that we laid out of 150, so we're going for more. We're really optimistic now going forward. And with regard to the long-term OR, I think we definitely have the self-help opportunities here to continue to improve OR.
We put out the 100-150 basis point improvement guideline on the long-term basis on kind of a regular where we are volume environment. And once we get the kind of the surge, the economic recovery that we're expecting, that's kind of the turbo boost where I think we've got a path to that 60 range. So John, do you want to talk about the buckets for?
John Orr — COO, Norfolk Southern Corporation
Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Chris. It's a really, really good question, one that we're really pushing ourselves hard to answer for everyone. And I think it starts and stops with our standards that we're increasing. We're coming off a great platform and bedrock of solid service and good productivity in 2024. We're building a new operating standard to increase the availability and reliability of important assets and the framework for continuous improvement in our tighter and more deliberate operating model.
And it's going to be step functions across certain assets, utilization for cars, locomotives, even the rubber-tired vehicle fleet, working hard across all segments of the business with IT and network infrastructure, and really right-sizing the network to the capabilities, increasing the skills and output of people through safety and the Thoroughbred Academy of Education, and really trying to align the headcount to the GTMs and really have a deliberate structure on how we onboard resources and deliver capability.
Mark George — President and CEO, Norfolk Southern Corporation
So Chris, I think as you look at the P&L, you're going to see it show up a little bit everywhere. Comp and Ben will be an area, again, where we can continue to be more efficient. We've taken out a ton of overtime and excess costs this year. There's more that John's identified by just running more efficient and cleaner connections in that line item. You remember we had a pretty meaningful headcount reduction in 2024. We'll get the full-year effect of that as well in 2025. But also, I think we'll see reductions in materials, as John just touched upon. We'll see reductions in fuel from efficiency improvements, and we'll even see improvements in purchase services, rents, car hire, equipment rents, so pretty much across the board. Thanks a lot, Chris.
Chris Wetherbee — Managing Director and Head of Transportation & Shipping Research, Wells Fargo
Got it. Thank you.
Scott Group — Analyst, Wolfe Research
Hey, thanks. Good morning, guys. Just on the 3% revenue growth for the year, any color on how to think about the mix of volume versus yield? And then maybe just want to follow up on the labor productivity side. Really good in Q4 with volume up three, headcount down five. How do you feel about incremental labor productivity opportunity in 2025?
Ed Elkins — Chief Marketing Officer, Norfolk Southern Corporation
Hey, Scott is good. I'll take on the first part of your question there, which I think was how do we think about the sort of mid-single-digit 3% revenue growth next year? We expect growth in most of our markets. Coal is really the only place where we see a lot of overt weakness. But we still got a fuel headwind out there. We know going into this year, and coal price will be another headwind. So we expect volume growth and our price plan to deliver a 3% against both of those headwinds. I'll turn it over to Jason.
Jason Zampi — CFO, Norfolk Southern Corporation
Yeah, I think on the labor productivity front, as you called out, appreciate the call out there on the great labor productivity we've had in the fourth quarter. Probably more focused on the T&E side. And I think as we move into 2025, we'll not only have continued benefits there, but we've got some runway in labor productivity across all the operating ranks.
John Orr — COO, Norfolk Southern Corporation
Yeah, I couldn't agree more, Jason. And you think about our Q4 2024 versus 2023, where we had an 18.5% reduction in overtime and full year of almost 15%. And getting back to the basics, creating a lot more discipline within our terminals, empowering and developing local supervisors to really drive that performance and creating that discretionary effort. And things as basic as getting ahead of the labor negotiations and really distilling purpose and intent on how we engage with our craft employees. And it's all coming together and leading ourselves to some very, very solid productivity initiatives.
Mark George — President and CEO, Norfolk Southern Corporation
Thanks a lot, Scott.
Scott Group — Analyst, Wolfe Research
Thank you.
Ken Hoexter — Managing Director, Bank of America
Hey, great. Good morning. Just if I can clarify on that, on the volume commentary, I guess the revenue, was that all volumes then? You see yields fairly balanced, and so it's all a volume commentary in terms of how you're looking at growth? And then thoughts on the buyback cadence into 2025? And lastly, John, I want to join the need for speed war room when you get a chance.
John Orr — COO, Norfolk Southern Corporation
Hey, Ken, we've always got a seat for you. Just bring your seatbelt because they move fast in there.
Ed Elkins — Chief Marketing Officer, Norfolk Southern Corporation
Hey, Ken, this is Ed. When I think about how we're going to deliver growth next year, it's really a combination. Yes, it's going to be led by volume across most of our markets. And then we got a price plan that's going to beat inflation again this year, just as it has in the past. Yeah, and Ken, your second question on share repurchases. We've really done a good job this year rebuilding our balance sheet, and that's through really three fronts: improved profitability, the insurance recoveries that we've been able to achieve here, and the line sales.
Our philosophy on those capital distributions hasn't changed. We always invest in the business first, then pay dividends, and then have share buybacks. Obviously, that was interrupted this year in 2023 and 2024, but we've got a path to deliver the balance sheet throughout the year, and we're going to be able to start resuming share repurchases at a measured pace. It's critical to us. That's a key component of our value creation framework that we laid out a couple of years ago.
I would say, Ken, just to add a little bit more on the revenue, because I think maybe others are probably also trying to hone in here on the volume. We do expect some volume growth, I think, is what Ken is saying. Probably a couple few points of volume growth. We're going to get good, really solid core pricing again, in particular merchandise. We probably don't have the headwinds in intermodal pricing like we've had to face. And we're hoping that we'll start to see that maybe come up with a stronger truck market. And then we do have headwinds still with regard to fuel, and in particular coal pricing, but also coal volume. So you put it all in the mix master, and that's how you end up with the 3% revenue growth that we're guiding to. So thanks a lot.
Ken Hoexter — Managing Director, Bank of America
Thanks. And can I just clarify one thing there? Does that include the tariff thoughts, or is that before any of that?
Ed Elkins — Chief Marketing Officer, Norfolk Southern Corporation
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, correct. That includes our outlook today.
Ken Hoexter — Managing Director, Bank of America
Okay. Thanks for the time.
Ed Elkins — Chief Marketing Officer, Norfolk Southern Corporation
Thank you.
Brian Ossenbeck — Analyst, JPMorgan Chase & Co
So I just wanted to ask a little bit more about pricing to the value of the service as it improves here and remains more consistent. So in the past, you've talked about maybe losing some market share based on some of the service challenges and disruptions that you had. So when that improves, do you see more of that as market share gain and recapture, or do you see a little bit of upside of yield, or is it perhaps a little bit of both? So now that you got some momentum, interested to hear how that's progressing this year. Thank you.
Ed Elkins — Chief Marketing Officer, Norfolk Southern Corporation
Yeah. This is Ed, and thanks for the question. It's a good one. And we actually toss this around a lot internally. I think the way that I think about it and the way I would put forward the way that everyone else should think about it is we are very interested in how much wallet share we have with our customers. And whether that's share reclaimed that's coming from somewhere else where it used to move on us, or whether it's share that has never moved by rail, but now it has the opportunity to, because of the value of the service that we're delivering.
We're very interested in how we can expand our wallet share with our customers, both our existing customers and adjacent customers in the supply chain. So we're working really hard on that. In terms of pricing to the value of the service, we've been very successful, particularly in our merchandise markets, where we offer exceptional value when we can deliver a good service product. We've been very diligent about being able to recognize that value through price, and we fully expect to continue to do that again this year. The value of our service continues to improve as we deliver a reliable, resilient service that customers can count on every day. So in short, Brian, both. We think that the value of really good service gives us leverage on both sides, pricing and volume, share recapture, I should say.
Brian Ossenbeck — Analyst, JPMorgan Chase & Co
Okay. Understood. Thank you.
Ed Elkins — Chief Marketing Officer, Norfolk Southern Corporation
Thank you very much.
Tom Wadewitz — Analyst, UBS
Hi. Yeah, good morning, and nice to see the continued strong momentum in what you're doing with the network and results as well. Wanted to see, I think, kind of following on Brian's question, how do you think about you have optimism on chemicals being stronger? Is that just kind of customers doing well, or is that gaining some share? And I think also at the beginning, Mark, you said customers are noticing. Are there specific examples where you say, "Okay, part of that chemicals is, hey, we've got some new wins that are a component of that." Are the new wins more likely to come in other segments? I guess just more around kind of where some of the growth comes from, and do you already have some of that set up in terms of new business?
Ed Elkins — Chief Marketing Officer, Norfolk Southern Corporation
Yeah, that's a very good question. For us, when we look across our markets, particularly at our merchandise markets, we know that our customers have suffered because of our service over time in a few very specific areas, and one of those is chemicals. And so we're putting a lot of emphasis on making sure that we can deliver value in that particular segment. When I think about our local service product and how we deliver for our customers, John and I spent a lot of time, we were on the call this morning, actually, talking about specific customers and how we can deliver more value for them on a much more ratable basis. And that's really fundamentally where we want to go, and that is be very specific and targeted for wallet share with our customers.
The second piece of this is, as we deliver a better service and higher velocity, it actually gives us more agility inside the network to respond to what's going on in the marketplace, and I look at our success in our ag markets over the past two quarters, where we were able to actually be very agile and take advantage of what the market was offering in a way that we couldn't have previously as a good example of that. In terms of other markets where we see growth, I think Intermodal is going to lead growth this year. They did last year. They will again this year. We have a very bullish consumer still, and it appears we have a very resilient economy, so I think both of those things are going to manifest themselves in more opportunity for us with a better service product.
John Orr — COO, Norfolk Southern Corporation
Yeah. I mean, we've had a really good Intermodal service product for a couple of years now, but it is at extraordinarily high levels.
Tom Wadewitz — Analyst, UBS
Okay. But I guess to be clear on the chemicals comment, though, you have visibility to some business coming back. That's not just, "Hey, chemicals market looks good." That's like getting business back as well as maybe some growth in market.
Ed Elkins — Chief Marketing Officer, Norfolk Southern Corporation
That's correct. We have modified some specific wallet share opportunities that we're on top of.
Tom Wadewitz — Analyst, UBS
Great. Thank you.
Ed Elkins — Chief Marketing Officer, Norfolk Southern Corporation
Thank you, Tom.
Brandon Oglenski — Analyst, Barclays
Hey, good morning, everyone, and thank you for taking the question. John, I was wondering if you could elaborate on the changes you're making to the op plan this year? I think you called it a refreshment in the slides, but maybe like a newer operating plan in your comments. So can you maybe elaborate more there?
John Orr — COO, Norfolk Southern Corporation
Yeah, absolutely. The refresh or the new operating plan, as you call it, is really the next iteration of continuous improvement. We've been churning out improvements in our terminals. That was our starting point on time performance and over-the-road speed, and as we've moved through the progression of improvement on our network health, our asset efficiencies, and our customer-facing metrics, the next evolution is tightening down standards, so connection standards in terminals, creating better yield for our train lengths, for our train weights, for our customization of the service that Ed needs in order to be competitive and to grow the business.
We're looking then at over-the-road and how do we make our end-to-end a lot more competitive, and once we do that and we leverage up on the speed increases that we've got, sizing our service plan to meet that speed. That gives us a lot of flexibility to use our collective agreement articles on employee availability and accessibility to do more at the front end of their trip or the back end of their trip and start to really yield out on productivity. It'll help us right-size our fleet, right-size our cars, and really be more disciplined in how we operate.
Mark George — President and CEO, Norfolk Southern Corporation
Reduce handling.
John Orr — COO, Norfolk Southern Corporation
Absolutely. And again, back to that philosophy of extending the length of the trains as long as possible, that'll allow us to leave our locomotives in active service longer. That'll reduce the dwell time of locomotives, the demand of locomotives, the fuel consumption, all of those things. So it took a while. It took the last nine months of heavy lifting to get us in position to take this next step. And it'll be one of many iterations as we continue to improve, but very confident in the capability of the team to deliver.
Brandon Oglenski — Analyst, Barclays
Thanks, John.
John Orr — COO, Norfolk Southern Corporation
Thanks, Brandon. Thank you.
Walter Spracklin — Canadian Equity Research Management and Co-Head of Global Industrials Research, RBC Capital Markets
Yeah. Thanks very much, Alberto. Good morning, everyone. So this question is for John. John, I know you've been targeting 100-150 basis points OR improvement, and it's still a bit of a gap relative to peers. So my question is, what's kind of holding it back from a faster clip? And I know when you saw Hunter go over somewhere, you'd just be fast and furious and kind of take a hatchet to that OR. Are you protecting customer service? Is there constraints in labor agreements? Just curious as to where we could see upside to that speed like we did in 2024, and what might be holding it back, if anything?
John Orr — COO, Norfolk Southern Corporation
I'll tell you, we're not leaving any stone unturned. Let's just be clear about that. And we have to set a flag in our budget. Jason's got me challenged on a number of things, including how do we increase our car miles per car day, our fuel efficiencies, our RPUs. I mean, he's right down to the taxes on me. But what I think is that we're going to leverage up on our locomotive productivity. We've got big rocks to gain on our fuel and our purchases and services. And so while we finished the year slightly ahead of our guidance and really, really proud of the team for the $292 million or $293 million in cost takeout, we're attacking everything.
And I'll go back to the last question, is that restructuring the operating plan to leverage up on the disciplined approach to improvement is putting more pressure on me and the team to deliver to a higher standard. I love our war room mentality where we triage problems, we pull it out of the triage and the day-to-day and elevate it up to continuous improvement philosophies and educate people, drive out anomalies from the system, or give us a better competitive edge.
And so these are things that Hunter didn't really do and we're doing. And it's Mark's leadership. It's the partnership I've got with Ed and Jason that are giving us a holistic approach to this. So there's no stone unturned. We're not holding back. There's nothing structural that's holding me back. We're locked in on the continuous improvement agenda, and our customers are why we're here. I will not foreclose on our customer capability for a few cents of advancement. I know that's going to come, and we're going to do it in a disciplined way.
Mark George — President and CEO, Norfolk Southern Corporation
Walter, obviously, there's a lot of history that you probably have studied about the pace of change that happened in some of the other roads. I would just say I'm super proud of John's cerebral approach to what he's doing here. It's a very cerebral approach based on all the lessons that he learned being part of it in the past, which is why he calls it a PSR 2.0, PSR 2.0. So the evidence is here that we're doing this while we're taking on more volume and not compromising customer service. So I think this is a great story, and I think we should all be proud of John for what he's doing here.
John Orr — COO, Norfolk Southern Corporation
I'm proud of the whole team. It's a team effort. It takes everybody here.
Walter Spracklin — Canadian Equity Research Management and Co-Head of Global Industrials Research, RBC Capital Markets
Yeah, you're definitely delivering it, and just keep it up. I appreciate it. Thanks, everyone.
Mark George — President and CEO, Norfolk Southern Corporation
Thank you.
John Orr — COO, Norfolk Southern Corporation
Thank you, Walter.
Jason Seidl — Managing Director, Cowen Inc.
Hey, thank you, our great marketing team. Congrats on the good quarter, Ed. I hope you feel better, sir. Wanted to focus a little bit on the intermodal performance and the merchandise trip plan compliance. Clearly, much better than last year when you look at that. But there was what I think is probably more of a seasonal dip in 4Q. Can you talk to us about two things? One, what's the normal seasonal progression from Q3 to Q4 for both those measures, and what should we expect going forward in 2025?
John Orr — COO, Norfolk Southern Corporation
Why don't I start, Ed, because you hold me accountable for delivering trip plans. We've got really good trip plans, especially in the quarter. We're hard on ourselves. I mean, we came through the fourth quarter despite getting hit by a number of hurricanes and port strikes and started this year into the polar vortex. My philosophy is drive hard, go as deep into the environmental conditions as you possibly can without being impacted, and work like the devil to get out of it as fast as you can. We saw that. We saw some V-shaped impacts to these things. Overall, when we came back strong, we were able to recover it fairly quickly. I think we over-communicated with our customers and prepared for the worst and delivered pretty solid results.
Mark George — President and CEO, Norfolk Southern Corporation
Yeah, here's what I would say about the third quarter, fourth quarter progression. We had a lot of things going on this year, and I say we as a royal we, the whole industry did, whether it was a couple of hurricanes, one port stoppage and one threat of another one, which really distorted volumes and volume flows. And I'm very proud of the way that we responded to both of those challenges with regard to snapping back. That's really the definition of resilience. Something changes, you get hit with something you didn't expect, and how fast do you snap back to the norm? And I think we did a really good job.
John Orr — COO, Norfolk Southern Corporation
Yeah. And I think they were underpinned by a 3.5 or 3.1% improvement in overall velocity that allowed us to get end-to-end on intermodal. And what I really love is merchandise and unit trains. We're up 11 and 17% respectively in the same period. So all of our trains rose with that tide of continuous improvement.
Jason Seidl — Managing Director, Cowen Inc.
And guys, just thank you.
Joseph Hafling — Vice President of Equity Research, Jefferies Financial Group Inc.
Hi, good morning. This is Joe Hafling on for Stephanie Moore. Congrats on the good results. Maybe piggybacking on a question we had heard earlier, John, on sort of the next phase of optimization. You specifically called out mechanical infrastructure and some fuel efficiency gains. I guess, could you help me understand maybe more specifically what are some of the items that you're looking to tackle and kind of what the magnitude of those savings could look like?
John Orr — COO, Norfolk Southern Corporation
For sure. And I'll just start with fuel. It's a number of things, including we finished 2024 at a 1.08 fuel efficiencies. And we had a bit of a headwind coming in. In Q1 of 2024, we were at a 1.22. And we really worked hard to get it down to where we were. That ended up at a fairly solid number and a record in the quarter and a record in the year. So that was fueled by having a really strong balance on HPT and disciplined use of distributed power, right-sized locomotives for the right-sized trains, stopping less. So the number of disruptions over the road decreased significantly because of our mechanical war room and the intelligence we could gather there. So we're building better trains, more capable trains across the road. And when you're not idling cars and idling locomotives, you're not wasting fuel.
So our fuel productivity was increased because of our over-the-road capability and the discipline of pulling out additional resources, storing them, and having more constrained asset utilization. So our locomotives dwelled less in between work events. We're also looking at a deliberate impact on how we distribute fuel. So our vendors, the vendor structures, the distribution systems, and all of those things, the categories that drive ownership reduction and new discipline, arbitrage opportunities, and balancing out how we self-supply our locomotive fleet with fuel. So those things are in flight. We started to really get traction towards the latter part of the year. We're doing it on a quasi-manual basis right now. And we expect as the year progresses, we'll have further and further automation towards that.
I would say we're also pretty blessed with our energy management systems that we've put in place towards the latter part of the year that have delivered significant results. From a mechanical process, we're looking at all of the assets and how we cycle our car fleet and locomotive fleet for repair. The physical assets, the production that we've done, and even the AAR visibility and how we bill and how we get value from our locomotive or, sorry, our mechanical efforts on car. All of these things are in flight. We'll really start to see strong performance on those things as we get through the year. I don't know, Jason, if you have any further color on that.
Jason Zampi — CFO, Norfolk Southern Corporation
No, I think those, as you mentioned, John, I think those are going to be the key, some of the key areas as we think about our productivity moving into 2025 and really accelerating on that total commitment there of $150 million plus. So that's great work.
Joseph Hafling — Vice President of Equity Research, Jefferies Financial Group Inc.
That's really helpful, guys. Thank you so much. Congrats again.
Jason Zampi — CFO, Norfolk Southern Corporation
Thank you.
Bascome Majors — Analyst, Susquehanna International Group
Mark, you've been in the CEO seat almost five months now. You've gone through your first annual planning process as CEO, a couple of board meetings. Can you talk a little bit about the board dynamics, where everyone is clearly aligned, and what the board's number one priority for you and senior management is over the next 12 to 18 months? Thank you.
Mark George — President and CEO, Norfolk Southern Corporation
Hey, thanks, Bascom. Look, our board has been really remarkably unified. They came from different avenues. We've got a lot of new board members. The majority of them are within the past 18 months. Yet they've all congealed in a beautiful way in the boardroom, and I'm really pleased to see the engagement from all quarters and the mutual respect that's being shown, given everybody's unique background, so I would say that their principal objective, and we had a board meeting yesterday, actually, and the questions are, what can we do to help support management on its journey?
Because they know they believe in the strategy. They believe that it's yielding results. They believe in the team that we've assembled, which I'm super proud of, and they really just want to be as supportive as they can, but also coach and guide where they see opportunities. So right now, I'm thrilled with the dynamic. And I think our management team feels fully supported by the board as well. Thanks, Bascome.
Bascome Majors — Analyst, Susquehanna International Group
Thank you.
Ravi Shanker — Analyst, Morgan Stanley
Great. Good morning, everyone. Just a clarification here. You mentioned tariff headwinds to volumes through the course of the year. But do you expect to see tariff tailwinds before that? What are you hearing on potentially shippers restocking and that spillover into the rail side, potentially being a tailwind before we see the headwinds?
Mark George — President and CEO, Norfolk Southern Corporation
Ravi, I think what we said is uncertainty around tariffs, and I think reasonable people can have differing opinions on how tariffs may impact their business, but certainly in the rail transportation space, I have a different view that maybe even Ed may mildly disagree with, but these things take a while to play out. We don't know how they're going to play out, and from a producer's perspective, a manufacturer's perspective, if suddenly they're subjected to tariffs, how they respond may vary. Where are the alternative sources? At the end of the day, things will play out over time, but we move the U.S. economy. We move GDP, and whether that GDP is coming across the border as an import or whether it's now being produced domestically due to some onshoring, we're going to be there to move it.
So I kind of think it's going to be a net wash in terms of volume. But it could play out a little bit different. And the beauty is that our network now is nimble enough to adjust to wherever the change in the source of supply comes from. So I wouldn't say that we're baking in, and I think Ken tried to ask that question, but I don't think we're baking in a particular headwind per se. It's just we're nimble enough. We don't know exactly how it's all going to manifest, but we'll be ready to move it, whether it's domestic, whether it's crossing the border as an international move. Ed, why don't you clean that up a little?
Ed Elkins — Chief Marketing Officer, Norfolk Southern Corporation
Look, I don't disagree at all. I think our customers would tell you that they all have different opinions on how it's going to manifest itself or not. But look, let's talk about some facts. Over three quarters of our business is tied to our domestic economy. That leaves less than 25% that's tied to international trade. And I think you're exactly right, Mark. And I'm not saying that because you're my boss. But I think you're exactly right. We have enough operational nimbleness now. And frankly, with the capability that we're developing in our sales force, that we're going to be able to respond to whatever the economy delivers or whatever trade policy delivers. We're going to be there to make the most of those opportunities, whether they're domestic or international.
Ravi Shanker — Analyst, Morgan Stanley
Understood. Thank you.
Mark George — President and CEO, Norfolk Southern Corporation
Thank you, Ravi.
Daniel Imbro — Analyst, Stephens
Yeah. Hey, good morning, guys. Thanks for taking our questions. Maybe one just on the callout look. You mentioned a few times expecting a more bearish outlook versus your prior expectations. And that's in the slide deck. I guess, can you talk about what's driving that softer outlook given the stronger back half of 2024 results there? And then any update on the contract you're bringing online this year? I think it was about 5 million tons annually when you announced it. But is that still the right way to think about contribution? And when should that sort of flow into numbers? Thanks.
Ed Elkins — Chief Marketing Officer, Norfolk Southern Corporation
I think you're referring to coal. Is that right, Daniel? I couldn't hear you at the beginning there.
Daniel Imbro — Analyst, Stephens
Yeah. Sorry. Yes. All the coal side.
Ed Elkins — Chief Marketing Officer, Norfolk Southern Corporation
When we look at the forward curve, that's the first thing that we look at when we think about what's going on with the international markets. And coal price has been under pressure now for a couple of quarters. And we see that continuing. I think there's probably downside risk for the market in that particular dimension. On the volume side, we'll have to wait and see. I think that there's clearly some downdraft in terms of demand currently on the seaborne side.
And then on the domestic side, we've had a couple of nice winter weeks here, which probably has helped burn rates. But there's still plenty of stockpile out there on the utility side. We're watching gas prices, nat gas prices, very closely, which I think will help determine the trajectory going forward for that domestic demand on the utility side. I think that's an important variable. There's upside if nat gas prices go up. And they've moved up a little bit in recent weeks. But right now, that's not the way the curves are indicated. Your second question was about our new customer. Yeah, we expect to see volumes from that coming on in the second quarter and going forward. Thank you, Daniel.
Daniel Imbro — Analyst, Stephens
Ed, thank you.
David Vernon — Analyst, Sanford C. Bernstein
Hey, good morning, guys. And thanks for fitting me in here. So Ed, can you help us understand kind of how we should be modeling sort of the average RPU in coal kind of moving forward here sequentially? And then a secondary question for the broader team. If you're thinking about the 150 basis points of OR improvement kind of year over year, is there anything that we should note around seasonality or when those gains should be showing up in terms of the margin performance? Got a lot of questions around whether 1Q is going to be getting hit from export coal falling or remarking some of those contracts. I'm just trying to kind of blend that all together if you could help us shape out when that headwind starts to hit for 2025. Thanks.
Ed Elkins — Chief Marketing Officer, Norfolk Southern Corporation
I think the headwind is kind of there now and probably continues going forward as we get later in the year.
Jason Zampi — CFO, Norfolk Southern Corporation
Coal. Can you ask about coal?
Yes. RPU.
Ed Elkins — Chief Marketing Officer, Norfolk Southern Corporation
Yeah. That's exactly what I'm talking about. We see that seaborne price is down now. It's going to continue to be down. We think certainly in the near to medium term. Longer term, as the year manifests itself, we're just going to keep adjusting our models. But we think there's probably still some downside that we've baked into our models. And I think everyone else should too.
Jason Zampi — CFO, Norfolk Southern Corporation
Yeah. And, David, on your question on the OR, we've got a lot of momentum from our strong service product and operational progress. And that's really what makes us confident to guide at that top end of our original range, so that 150 basis points of annual improvement. I'd point out that that improvement is in the face of nearly 200 basis points of pressure on the OR from inflation, fuel price, and depreciation headwinds. If you think about it in the quarters, I would just say there's puts and takes in the individual quarters. For example, you've got the timing of incentive comp in the first quarter, things like seasonality of volumes and the timing of wage increases. You know all those. But so when you average it all out, we're, again, confident in that ability to deliver the 150 basis points of annual improvement despite those headwinds.
David Vernon — Analyst, Sanford C. Bernstein
Does the momentum comment push some of that more in the first half of the year, or is that offset by some of those seasonal factors you mentioned?
Jason Zampi — CFO, Norfolk Southern Corporation
I think the momentum I'm referring to is just operational momentum, and we're really pleased with how that's going, I think, on all fronts. Thanks.
David Vernon — Analyst, Sanford C. Bernstein
All right. All right. Thanks, guys. And congrats on your first quarter here. Thanks.
Jason Zampi — CFO, Norfolk Southern Corporation
Thank you, David. Appreciate it.
Ari Rosa — Analyst, Citigroup Inc
Hi. Good morning. So you mentioned some of the port stoppages, distorting volume flows. I just wanted to get your perspective on to what extent we might have seen pull forward of volume in fourth quarter given some of the strong intermodal results that we saw there. And then to what extent did you kind of have to add costs or add resources to manage through some of the variability in the kind of port stoppages or variability in volume? Thanks.
Ed Elkins — Chief Marketing Officer, Norfolk Southern Corporation
Sure. This is Ed. I think we did see, certainly during the third and fourth quarters, more volume turned back to the West Coast for some East Coast destinations. And we were able to handle that really and truly. I think I'll defer to John, but without much of a hiccup in terms of additional resources or train starts, it was really incremental volume on existing trains with a very good service product, which kept fluidity rolling. Probably the biggest challenge for us was attempting to make sure that we were servicing our customers on the East Coast as long as we could up until the anticipated work stoppage. And thankfully, that didn't happen. John, you got any other commentary on that?
John Orr — COO, Norfolk Southern Corporation
I absolutely agree with your assessment. We were able to handle it very well. I think we communicated pretty effectively and knew what we were up against. There was a little bit of sloppiness in the car supply that was a sector issue. But we were able to smooth that out really quickly and get back on track as soon as the market gave us a chance to.
Ari Rosa — Analyst, Citigroup Inc
Yeah. Thanks for the question.
Jordan Alliger — Analyst, Goldman Sachs
Yeah. Hi. Good morning. So I think a week or so ago, you put out a release talking about industrial development across your network, adding about 150,000 of incremental carload sort of tailwind on that active pipeline. I'm just curious sort of the timing of this, and is some of that even factored into 2025? And what's the potential for that to upsize over time? Thanks.
Jason Zampi — CFO, Norfolk Southern Corporation
We have a nice, very robust pipeline and pipeline process for our industrial development team. In the fourth quarter, we had eight new locations and four facility expansions that came online. And our 2025 pipeline continues to be very strong. Those numbers we put out really are going to manifest themselves throughout the year and represent full production for those facilities. And the great thing about it is these are projects that are not just for this year, but they're for hopefully many years to come. And I think that's just a powerful testament to the value we can offer customers with the service that we offer. Thanks for the question.