Martin Wilkie — Analyst, Citi
Thank you very much.
Ann-Sofie Nordh — Head of Investor Relations, ABB
Thanks, Martin. And Andy, we have you next here in line. Are you with us? Andy Wilson?
It's Alex at BofA, Ann-Sofie.
Alex?
I got unmuted. I don't know if you were-
We'll try Alex then. Go ahead.
I'll take it. Apologies, Andy. I'm sure you're painfully busy.
We'll let you deal with that later.
Thanks very much for taking the question, and good morning to both of you. To all of you, I'm sorry. I wondered if you could talk just a little bit about the situation in MA. I think the development and point of normalization keeps getting pushed to the right. It's quite interesting to see the order intake in Germany up as strongly as it is, and your comments on the order intake there, given how dominant Europe is in that business. So I just wondered if you could help us a little bit with describing the trends on that, how you're seeing really as the exit rates into 2025 would be super helpful. Thank you.
Morten Wierod — CEO, ABB
Oh, thanks, Alex, for the question. I mean, the whole situation in Machine Automation very much driven of kind of the post-COVID effect, where they added a lot of capacity for a lot of orders, but then you got a lot of inventory at the machine builders in Germany, but also really across the world. So this is an, the whole industry sector of machine builder facing a similar challenge as we also do at ABB these days. So you're also right saying that this is lasting longer than what we expected one or two quarters ago. And so therefore, we also say now that we think that during Q2 next year, we'll see a normalization of the situation.
Of course, what we need to do here at ABB is to adopt our break-even level at the Machine Automation business so that it becomes coming out of this situation, it's a stronger team, still very innovative and coming up with great technology for machine builders, because this is high precision, high speed machinery where we play. So that the technology and R&D investments happening, that is still key to keep that well balanced and keep that well in place. But we need to take down the overall cost of operations in those units, and that is already ongoing, and we will have to continue that for also now in the fourth quarter. But Timo, maybe you have a comment?
Timo Ihamuotila — CFO, ABB
Quickly on the Germany topic. We, yes, we had 33% growth in Germany this quarter, but last year, Q3, we went down also 33%. This is actually sort of stabilizing now at a bit lower level. What was really nice to see in Germany, outside Machine Automation, was that, for example, in EL Smart Buildings, we started to see a bit of a pickup, which was really, really good. But I would say Germany stabilizing at a sort of bit lower level is the right way to look at it.
Ann-Sofie Nordh — Head of Investor Relations, ABB
Okay.
That's very helpful. Thank you.
Thanks, Alex. And now to keep things on a good tone here, we better try see if Andy is here now.
Andy Wilson — Managing Director, Bank of America
Hi, good morning, everyone. Appreciate I got... Thanks for the big lead in. I wanted to ask around pricing trends. I guess we sort of talked, I think, about the revenue growth being a function of kind of, I guess, split evenly between price and volume. And clearly that's coming through from kind of previously priced orders. I wonder if you could help us a little bit in terms of what you're seeing and what you're thinking in terms of 2025 with regards to pricing and kind of how confident you are on retaining still positive pricing going into 2025.
I guess linked to that, any sort of comment you could make across the businesses with regards to particular areas of strength or weakness, just to try and help us fill in some of those gaps?
Morten Wierod — CEO, ABB
Yeah. Yeah, maybe you start, Timo.
Timo Ihamuotila — CFO, ABB
Yeah. Yeah, I can, I can start. So first of all, when you look at the pricing, we said that we had approximately 1% improvement in profitability coming from pricing. That's in our bridge, we have this sort of pricing and volume, $90 million, if I remember correctly, about $60 million of that is price, and rest is volume. But then if you look at the whole operations bucket, which, if I remember correctly, is about $80 million, out of that, we also have a bit in, let's call it, better quality project execution, kind of like right pricing in the longer cycle business. So I think we are in a pretty good place moving on from here.
I mean, I don't think we can give any pricing guidance going into 2025, but sort of we would expect pricing also to be a bit of a positive driver. Why don't I just sort of leave it there?
Ann-Sofie Nordh — Head of Investor Relations, ABB
Okay.
Andy Wilson — Managing Director, Bank of America
Very helpful. Thank you.
Ann-Sofie Nordh — Head of Investor Relations, ABB
Thanks, and then we open up the line for Max at Morgan Stanley.
Max Yates — Equity Research, Morgan Stanley
Thank you. Good morning, everyone. I guess just my question would be asking around the order backlog, and I guess what we can learn from the order backlog about the outlook for 2025. And I guess I don't expect you to sort of guide on 2025, but if we look at the order backlog for delivery in 2025, and we compare it to where we were, say, 12 months ago, what does that look like? And I guess, does that point to 2025 being a year where we can be within the sort of 5%-7% growth range? I guess just what... Yeah, what can we learn from the order backlog and timing of that backlog to delivery in 2025? Any color on that would be helpful.
Morten Wierod — CEO, ABB
As I can start. I mean, I think you already said it in your question, that you don't expect any 2025 guidance, and we will not give that. So but, Timo, maybe you can also comment a bit on, on-
Timo Ihamuotila — CFO, ABB
Yeah
Morten Wierod — CEO, ABB
Kind of general in the backlog.
Timo Ihamuotila — CFO, ABB
Yeah, let's first talk a little bit how the backlog has moved, because I think it is quite important. So when you look at the backlog growth, we had 4% growth in backlog now, Q3, but we had 12% growth in EL. I think we had 8% growth in Motion. We had 6% growth in PA and -29% in RA. So it really just shows those dynamics, what we have been talking earlier about as well. We don't see now at this point in time a big sort of delta in the backlog conversion going into 2025. I also want to say that this backlog data is not exact science, so I don't think there is anything there which we could sort of rely on, nor is there anything which would be sort of alarming.
Ann-Sofie Nordh — Head of Investor Relations, ABB
Okay, thank-
Max Yates — Equity Research, Morgan Stanley
Okay, thank you.
Ann-Sofie Nordh — Head of Investor Relations, ABB
Thanks, Max. And then we open up the line for Will Mackie at Kepler Cheuvreux.
Will Mackie — Head of Capital Goods Research, Kepler Cheuvreux
Yeah, a very good morning to everybody. Thank you. My question relates to your plans to structurally adjust costs at E-mobility and across Robotics and automation. Can you frame for us perhaps what the sort of annualized benefit will be from the measures you're taking as we run into 2025 in terms of absolute cost out to the P&L base or may change, and then we can speculate on demand? Thank you.
Morten Wierod — CEO, ABB
Well, thanks, Will. We are, as you say, in all businesses, part of the ABB operating model. All businesses that are facing some headwind in the market or weaker demand will have to address their cost base. That is how we drive, and that's also why we use our productivity measure as one of the mandatory measure for all business leaders, that you need to always take care of productivity. So that is what Machine Automation, Robotics, and also our E-mobility business are in the midst of doing now, because this has been ongoing for some time. So but of course there are different type of measures that we have to do here based on the challenge they face.
Taking our E-mobility business as one example, it's there we have invested even more in the technology and upgrading the product portfolio so that it's really fit for the future market of high power charging, you know, the higher ranges when so you can do the quick charge. So that is kind of the where we are doing really the resetting of that business with a very upgraded, and now we're doing pilot installations at customer site. So then of course, they also need to make that with a new design, that it also fit for the future price and cost levels, what customer expect.
In the Machine Automation, it is the same challenge to stay innovative and competitive, but at the same time, you need to reduce the break-even level so we are able to show the performance what we expect from that business, and getting back to where we can say that they are in line with expectation, and they're creating the value we expect them to do. Timo, maybe you want to give a couple of examples as well.
Timo Ihamuotila — CFO, ABB
Yeah, maybe on this overall cost equation. So we would expect both of these businesses to turn to growth, and that's why the cost takeout has to be such that you can also ramp it up later. So one should not expect here something where we kind of like can just take tens and tens and tens of millions of cost out and keep the fixed cost in that new level. But what we are looking at is really to get first the variable cost down as much as possible, and then we are streamlining the fixed cost as well, where it makes sense. But as Morten said, in both of these businesses, we need to continue to invest in R&D so that we come even better when the market, we come out even better when the market comes back.
Will Mackie — Head of Capital Goods Research, Kepler Cheuvreux
Thank you.
Ann-Sofie Nordh — Head of Investor Relations, ABB
Thanks, Will. And then, Daniela Costa at Goldman, your line should be open, please.
Daniela Costa — Equity Research, Goldman Sachs
Hi, good morning. Just one question in terms of your seasonality comment regarding the margin in Q4 being sort of like a worse than normal seasonality. I understand that certainly corporate is one part that contributes to that. But can you elaborate if that applies to any of the divisions, and if so, why?
Morten Wierod — CEO, ABB
We gave some comments there on the sequential margin being a bit lower than what you normally would see over the quarters. One being the corporate cost that was favorable in Q3, that will not have that same favorability in the fourth quarter. And then it's also the final step of the reset, I would call the reset of our E-mobility business. So those are two aspects that we need to kind of take into consideration when we look at the fourth quarter.
Timo Ihamuotila — CFO, ABB
Yeah, yeah, I-
Daniela Costa — Equity Research, Goldman Sachs
Not at the divisional level, yeah.
Timo Ihamuotila — CFO, ABB
Yeah. Not really in the business area level, yeah.
Daniela Costa — Equity Research, Goldman Sachs
Understood. Thank you.
Ann-Sofie Nordh — Head of Investor Relations, ABB
Okay, thanks, Daniela. And then we go to Joe at Cowen.
Joe Giordano — Managing Director, Cowen
Hi, guys. Can you hear me?
Ann-Sofie Nordh — Head of Investor Relations, ABB
Yes, we can. Thanks.
Joe Giordano — Managing Director, Cowen
Great. Can you talk about the competition landscape in RA in China now? We've been hearing about, like, local competitors taking some share with cheaper products, and just I know how well you're established in that region. Just curious if there's been any changes at the margin to the landscape there from local competitors. Thanks.
Morten Wierod — CEO, ABB
Yes, it is true. We are of course facing also in China a tough competition when we're looking at also some of the local players. And a few of them has come up, and so therefore we have to make also this our China for China strategy even kind of becomes even more important to remain competitive in the Chinese market. But also to come up with designs that is kind of fit for purpose for many of the special application that we face in China. China is used more even on the service robotic side.
We see examples, we see some cool examples from the noodle shop, where you come in, and you can buy your lunch with your special recipe, and your whole noodle soup is prepared by robots. So this is one example which we don't find in Europe, so kind of the design in designed in China, and then based on the need, but also based, of course, on the price and cost level that customers expect there. So that is what the Robotics team and what we have to do here to remain a market leader in China. That's kind of the our China for China strategy at its best when those things happening.
We have started those program already more almost two years ago, and we start to see impact, but of course, developing a fit for market and a very local portfolio when you go into new applications takes some time. But that is what we need to... And we'll see the benefits of in the quarters and time to come.
Ann-Sofie Nordh — Head of Investor Relations, ABB
Okay. Thank you. And then we take a question from James Moore at Redburn. Your line should be open.
James Moore — Partner, Redburn
Yeah, sorry, everyone. Thanks for the time. Morten, as the new CEO of ABB, could I ask whether you think anything needs to change in the company? What does success look like to you when you retire in five, 10 years' time? And on the portfolio, do you have any thoughts on areas you'd like to move into or areas you'd like to get out of, and would you consider selling a large unit, for example, Robotics?
Morten Wierod — CEO, ABB
Yeah. Well, we've come back to many of those questions. We have a session after now when we close with the Q3. I'll give some of my thoughts about, which I think can answer many of those questions, and then we will have another Q&A after that. So, James, if you could come back with those questions after I've done my bit of my CEO introduction, I think that would be helpful, and then we can just focus on the Q3 first, if that's okay.
James Moore — Partner, Redburn
Apologies, I didn't realize it was a double session. Maybe I could ask about data center then. Could you give us a rough split of the across UPS, relays, power protection, switchgear, PDUs, anything else? Just trying to get a flavor of what your mix of revenue is these days.
Morten Wierod — CEO, ABB
Yes, you see, the data center business, first of all, is, as you saw, it's growing very fast. We're up this year, even more than what we showed last year when we had our capital market day, when we referred to the plus 20%. And so that's important, especially in the electrification business. We're moving from the 12 and up to close to the 15% of the order intake of electrification. So it gain more and more momentum. So, and the offering we're having there, and where we have the biggest success is on the gray space, which is the medium-voltage switchgear, the low-voltage switchgear that provides all the power into the data center. That is the sweet spot for what we do. But it's not the only place.
We're also on the white space, on the UPS inside, you know, so supplying power to the power distribution units, the PDUs, that again supplies to the rack. So that's another part. I have to say, I'm very, very pleased to see the performance of also that low-voltage side of UPS. It's a business of a few hundred million dollars that has doubled now in the last three years, and now we have a plan for the next three years. We are expecting it to double again, and then it becomes a significant part and really relevant for that data center business. So this is important for both the hyperscalers, but also more the co-locations, that they have this really strong stock and support from us, giving critical infrastructure equipment.
Good growth, both in, of course, in the United States leading, but not limiting. Some of the biggest order we booked this quarter was in India, with some of the hyperscalers, and we have a big investment in data centers, both in India but also in China. Even though it get a lot of U.S.-focused, it's absolutely both a European but also an Asian element to it. So it goes across the board.
Timo Ihamuotila — CFO, ABB
Maybe you want to mention the HiPerGuard thing as well, the whole medium-voltage UPS piece.
Morten Wierod — CEO, ABB
Thanks, Timo. It's a good point. We see now a shift where some of the hyperscalers are looking at to take the low-voltage UPS, which is kind of close to the rack, so there you need a lot of space inside on the white space. You can also do this with our, what we call our, HiPerGuard, which is a medium-voltage UPS, and you place that close to the, you know, the transformer, the substation side, which gives you then secure power into the data center. It frees up a lot of space on the white space, which is a more expensive area to build, and it is easier to give a critical, this critical power equipment.
When you keep it outside, close to the transformer, it is also a cheaper way or a better way to do it. So that is where we see a lot of interest. We are the first in the hyperscaler space. A lot of our customers and partners there looking at this as a different design we can do it, and we have now a great interest to see how can we do this, and we'll come back with... I think, I hope to see some nice success stories pretty soon.
James Moore — Partner, Redburn
Thank you very much.
Ann-Sofie Nordh — Head of Investor Relations, ABB
Thank you. And since you mentioned it, Morten, the CEO sort of commentary about your first perspectives, I think we'll move straight into that now. We'll have Morten talk about his first impressions, and we will open up for another round of Q&A, as mentioned. So James and others, the rest of you will have the chance to put your questions through again. And just as a reminder, for that session, you will also need to press star 14 to get back into the queue. And with that said, we'll switch focus, and we'll do that by just having a short little video clip, and then we'll let Morten do his piece.
Morning, Morten.
Hi.
How are you feeling?
Good. Excited about the first day. Hey! This is a gift I got from the electrification team when I left in 2014 to the drives business.
What's your team, Morten?
That's Chelsea.
Morten, when you were a child, what did you want to be when you grew up?
Morten Wierod — CEO, ABB
Now we shift focus away from the Q3, and I know Ann-Sofie and the team get a lot of questions on what will change with me as CEO, as I clearly didn't become a farmer. Let's talk about the way forward. If you have followed ABB over the last four to five years, you know that there have been significant changes in our ways of working. Our people have done a great job to take the ABB Way operating model, and we have become a better-performing company on the back of it. But I wouldn't take on this role if I didn't believe that I can drive change to further improve, and with the team, make ABB an even better company.
That said, after the transformation period, it is equally important to point out what will not change, as we already are on a very good path. First of all, the big picture is really strong. We are at the center of secular trends of electricity becoming the key source of energy. For one, we serve our customers with high-quality offerings of low-carbon solutions and energy efficiency, and we also help manufacturing companies automate towards resource efficiency. The businesses we have are all a good fit with our purpose, and I want to make it clear that the ABB Way is here to stay. But I also strongly believe we can fine-tune it further, and I will come back to that. Internally, I will keep emphasizing the importance of us having a high-performance, high-integrity culture.
Customers should be able to trust us to deliver high quality in all aspects of our offering. The same goes for other stakeholders, like yourselves as shareholders or our employees. We will not waver in this. It builds trust and continuity with customers, but it also supports stability in our earnings profile. So what do I bring to the table as a new CEO to help us be even better? My mandate is obviously somewhat different compared with Björn's, who, since 2020, did a brilliant job in decentralizing ABB, and we have clearly improved profitability. For me, and from my starting point as CEO, it's only natural that I will have a higher emphasis on generating profitable growth rather than large internal operational changes. But I'm sure that we can build further on the ABB Way to support both growth and margin.
I believe we can do more in this area. I have more than 25 years in this company, so I have a pretty good feel for our customers' need and how our technology creates value. I know the ins and outs of the internal ABB and how we do business. I can use this background to set a good playing field for our people to collaborate. And those who know me know that I'm passionate about customer first. You also know that I'm a big football fan, and I strongly believe that the best results come from utilizing all parts of the team, both on and off the field. And I have this saying that none of us is as smart as all of us. I think we can make even more out of this going forward.
I also strongly believe that we at ABB can do more when it comes to being a force in driving the energy transition. What I mean is that we can use our know-how to influence and collaborate with thought leaders and policymakers, so that the outcome of our combined effort is as powerful as it can be. We can take a stronger role in showing the power of technologies that exist now, with the aim to drive investments into low-carbon solutions. So far, I think the U.S. has done better than the E.U. when it comes to facilitating the move of real cash to support these investments. And as a leading player in electrification and automation, we continue to drive the industry to operate leaner and cleaner.
I met some of you before, and Ann-Sofie has lined me up with an intense list of meetings in the coming week, so I will for sure meet more of you soon. What you will learn is that I like to keep things simple and the essence of business to be put to the customer-first approach. We are nothing without the support from our customers and partners, and we need to work closely with them to always improve. To improve, we need to take actions. I know I'm impatient with actions, but I also have full respect that one has to be somewhat more patient when it comes to results. One important thing that I have learned through my career is that the quickest way to target is to start with a "Why is this good?" and keep things simple.
High performance should go hand in hand with high integrity. And to get the machine working at full throttle, we need to utilize all the strengths we have in ABB. So it's my job to set a playing field where it's easy for our leaders to collaborate when it makes sense for them. Each part of the team needs to carry its weight and contribute to our common success. Sometimes we need to make adjustments to the team and how we play in order to bring home the trophies. I mentioned fine-tuning the ABB Way and using learnings from my time in Electrification. I want to challenge some of our divisions to cut the pie in even smaller pieces, and thereby taking another step towards increased accountability, transparency, and speed, but still keep our eye on the ball when it comes to collaboration towards our customers. This is not a one-size-fits-all.
Each business is different, and we only change when it makes sense from a business perspective. Most of you are familiar with our strategic mandates in order of stability, profitability before growth. We are already taking actions to fully apply this model also on business line level, meaning that while a division may have a growth mandate, the subordinate business line manager can have different mandates. We started this under my time in Electrification, and it was really great to see the commitment and the drive that is created further down in the organization as they got the full responsibility and mandate. But even so, all is not done in Electrification. Giampiero has a busy agenda to deliver on, and there is upside in Electrification, even from the current very high levels.
Ann-Sofie Nordh — Head of Investor Relations, ABB
Now, time for the second session for our Q&A. We'll, I think, in all fairness, allow James to come back and put his question, which he started earlier. James, your line should be open.
James Moore — Partner, Redburn
Thanks, Ann-Sofie. Yes, let's come back to that. Having heard everything you said, Morten, that was very comprehensive, maybe I could change my question from earlier and say. You talk about the fine-tuning and moving from the divisions to the subordinated business lines. Could you say how many business lines you have across the group, and whether the percentage of red, yellow, green is basically the same as the divisions, or whether that changes the degree to which you have a growth mandate? Maybe I could start there and then something on portfolio, if I could tag that on.
Morten Wierod — CEO, ABB
Thanks, James. Good question. We have in ABB 18, plus our E-mobility, that's what we kind of... When I say 19 operating divisions, that's how, and, you know, those sits in the four business areas. And, under those divisions, there could be from 3 and up to 5 to 6 business lines. That's, And you have to remember that these divisions can range from, like, from one and, you know, up to $6 billion, so they are, like, pretty large companies. So that's how we divide it. And, and you know that in every large, mid and large company, there are the, I would say, the, the really, the good, the bad and the, and the ugly. Even though in ABB we have more, much more of the good and the beautiful than the, than the ugly.
So we are. But this is how we define it also. The under that growth divisions, they will look at maybe if you have five business lines, and I can take Smart Building and electrification business, just as a practical example. There you would have three business line, which is in growth, profitable growth mindset. That means they are expected to grow, their targets are very much on growth, and their incentive plans is also heavy on revenue growth. So that is. But we also have two other business lines, which is not in the same situation. And of course, their targets is more about improving profitability and turning those business lines around. And that means higher targets on profitability improvement, but also more incentives and for their management about profitability improvement, not about growth.
And of course, when this will also be reflected when we look at capital allocation and M&A. That means if there is a business line where we are struggling or don't have, we feel we have it not under good enough control, we're not gonna allocate capital, making a significant investment there. First, you kind of get your house in order, and then you're allowed to grow, and you will get access also of the cash pool of ABB and further invest of it. So that's kind of, very in short, the principle of what we want to drive. What we have now done on the business area and divisional level, we now want to have on the division and the business line level.
Some are doing it already, but I think we can do even more because I know this drives ownership and performance, and it also just have more line of sight so that people can be in charge of their own destiny in the company and build successful careers and improve those businesses.
James Moore — Partner, Redburn
Thank you. If I could squeeze a second one on portfolio. I mean, any thoughts on the current portfolio? You mentioned all the businesses we have are a good fit, but would you consider selling a larger unit like Robotics, basically the question. And you mentioned the large acquisitions are your job more than the business areas. Are there any other legs that you could envisage technologically that you'd like to see the company add on, or a range of opportunities that you could see in the future?
Morten Wierod — CEO, ABB
Thanks. As we say, the smaller and midsize acquisitions sit with the divisions. The bigger portfolio questions sit very much with Timo and myself and the executive committee when we're looking at what we would do a change. That has been also the history of the past, when we did some of the divestments. But for us now, the focus is more about what we add than more than what we sell. So that is it's a clear focus on acquisitions more than divestment at the moment, because all the business we have in ABB today is fitting with our ABB purpose of electrification and automation and driving sustainability and resource efficiency. So right now, you mentioned Robotics.
We are facing some tougher situation in the market, but the long-term trend of automation and Robotics is definitely there. So therefore, we are confident it's more about improving the performance of the units, both in Robotics and in the Discrete Automation. That is the main focus now for the team and from all of us to make that business better and then move on.
Ann-Sofie Nordh — Head of Investor Relations, ABB
Okay. Thank you, James. And then we open up the line for Andre at UBS. Andre, are you there?
Andre Kukhnin — Managing Director, UBS
Good morning. Yes, yes, I am. Good morning. Thank you very much for taking my questions. I wanted to maybe touch specifically on the medium voltage piece within electrification, where you talked about kind of electrification margin is not yet at full potential. But medium voltage is one piece that I think has enjoyed a substantial improvement in profitability. I think we've gone up something like 10 points, close to 20%. How do you view that level of profitability in terms of kind of through-cycle sustainability and given the history of this business and this market?
Morten Wierod — CEO, ABB
Thanks, Andre. The medium voltage business in ABB has gone through a remarkable journey over the last three years, especially the last two years. Picking up on these mega trends of especially in the field of data center, but also on the utility space. So they have taken and captured many of those opportunities, and that's where we see both growth but also a strong improvement in profitability. And you have to look at this market. In the medium voltage markets area, you will see starting now in Europe a big shift to what we call SF6-free switchgear. This is where all the utilities have to change because this will be not allowed by European utilities to install. We see that many others, like China, is now following trend of Europe, and I believe this will be a global topic.
This is a new investment cycle that will happen in the medium voltage space because the SF6 switchgear need to be replaced over time, and all the new ones will come without SF6. We have the new design in place, and being the market leader in that space, I believe that gives us a really good opportunity also for the future in our medium voltage business. I'm confident there that this is a long-term interesting market way beyond 2030.
Because some of the, this whole electrification and more of the investment and the distribution network all across the world has to happen now, to be able to decarbonize industries and have that kind of this electrification trend is happening, that is really benefiting this part of the business. So, I'm very confident about that also for the coming years.
Ann-Sofie Nordh — Head of Investor Relations, ABB
Okay.
Andre Kukhnin — Managing Director, UBS
Thank you, and may I ask another question, or we can do one at a time?
Ann-Sofie Nordh — Head of Investor Relations, ABB
James started it, so we go for two then.
Morten Wierod — CEO, ABB
Ooh.
Andre Kukhnin — Managing Director, UBS
Thank you. I just wanted to ask about what you finished with in terms of implementing ABB Way further into divisions into sub-segments. I guess the simple question, what is the potential there? Whether you can help us at all with before we talked about numbers of people at the central function that got moved into business areas, then from business areas into kind of business units. Is this the way for us to think about of kind of that excess unattached headcount? And if it is, could you give us an idea of the numbers there, or is it different?
Morten Wierod — CEO, ABB
It is probably a bit different. This is more about how can we get faster to the, the targets that we have announced? How do we reach our growth and profitability targets in a very fast way? And, because this is how we are making decision-making closer to customers. I think that's... And driving accountability throughout and even deeper in the organization. For me, that's the benefit of this change, making us even, as I say, closer to customer, making decisions, and therefore driving growth in a better way. That is really the main advantage of it. And, but it also puts all the business lines in charge of their own cost. And I use this expression often, it's much easier to spend other people's money. So when it's your money, then, you're also holding on it, onto it tighter.
And I think that is, again, driving performance in the group over the last years, and that's also how we want to continue and drive that even harder in the next, in the coming years.
Timo Ihamuotila — CFO, ABB
Can I throw something in there as well, so we are not expecting any kind of corporate-level, big restructuring. Those things we have done when we have decentralized, but we expect all the time operational improvement also on cost management, and we use very systematically this gross profit productivity measure, i.e., we all the time measure how much does each headcount bring gross profit and how does that move forward, and that's proven to be a very good measure because it focuses on gross margin, which for a technology company or technology-oriented B2B company, is very, very important metric, and it forces you to all the time think how you do stuff better, so optimization on the cost will happen more on that front.
Then, of course, from time to time, we can have situations like we now have in Machine Automation, where we really have to do a bigger restructuring, but it's done then in that particular division.
Ann-Sofie Nordh — Head of Investor Relations, ABB
Okay.
Andre Kukhnin — Managing Director, UBS
Great. Thank you very much.
Ann-Sofie Nordh — Head of Investor Relations, ABB
Thanks, Andre, and then we open up the line for Gael at Deutsche Bank. The line should be open.
Gael de Bray — Head of European Capital Goods Research, Deutsche Bank
Oh, thank you. Good morning, everyone. Can I firstly follow up on the data center topic? I'm referring to slide four of the first slideshow, and it seems there are two main white spaces in your portfolio for data centers, DCIM and cooling solutions. And today, Schneider just announced a big acquisition in liquid cooling. So is this an area of interest for you, too, or are you happy just being a component supplier to cooling players and working with partners?
Morten Wierod — CEO, ABB
Yes, we are confident, our way of working with partners in the space of cooling is a good way for us. Because we often see that this is with strong regional players in that space as well, and we partner with those market-leading players, and it complements our offering, and we're able to there to get the share that we want. Of course, we can always do better, but I think the way of working here with partners has served us well, and that's also where we rather even expand on those partnerships in the time to come. So that's more our way of working.
Gael de Bray — Head of European Capital Goods Research, Deutsche Bank
Okay, thanks very much. Can I have a second one as well?
Ann-Sofie Nordh — Head of Investor Relations, ABB
You can indeed.
Timo Ihamuotila — CFO, ABB
You open the door.
Ann-Sofie Nordh — Head of Investor Relations, ABB
That's the way we go now.
Gael de Bray — Head of European Capital Goods Research, Deutsche Bank
This time the question is on the Robotics and Discrete Automation business area. Björn used to describe this business as potentially a 15% margin business with a 10% CAGR in the long run. I mean, today you've talked about a 25% discount reduction in Machine Automation and maybe higher competitive pressures in Robotics. So do you still share this optimistic view about margins and growth?
Morten Wierod — CEO, ABB
I think at this point of time I would not go into the ten to fifteen discussion because the focus for our team now short term is very different. It's about turning the business around and getting up to a performance that we are satisfied with. I think we were very clear. We're not there at the moment, therefore, we have homework at ABB, as many of our industrial peers as well. That's really the focus right now to get back. Long term, I believe that trend of automation and Robotics that is absolutely there.
So that is not, but the focus now for us at ABB is to get it to take care of some of the short-term actions and challenges that we face, and then we'll come back into this as a good business for ABB, and we'll take it from there. But if you have any further comments, Tim, or
Timo Ihamuotila — CFO, ABB
No, no, nothing to add.
Morten Wierod — CEO, ABB
Not really.
Timo Ihamuotila — CFO, ABB
Of course, we are looking to make all the businesses in ABB better, and that's of course what we are doing here as well. And there is a lot of innovation on the Robotics and Discrete Automation market, so we shouldn't sort of automatically say that the market now is the market in the future. Maybe just throw that in there.
Morten Wierod — CEO, ABB
Good point.
Ann-Sofie Nordh — Head of Investor Relations, ABB
Okay, and then we move to Sean at HSBC.
Sean McLoughlin — Director, HSBC
Good morning, and thank you for your time. I wanted to ask, thinking your thinking on software. I think it's been a debate around ABB and your versus your peers over the years. I mean, what's your view on software? Do you believe more in-housing of software capabilities is a need, or are you really looking for hardware adjacencies into new areas? Yeah, that's the first question, if I may add a second later.
Morten Wierod — CEO, ABB
Yeah, yeah. Well, let's take the software question first. We do a lot of software at ABB. It's a big portion. You've probably heard that. We may have heard earlier that 55% of our R&D engineers are software engineers, so it's a vital part of our offering, and it's. But we don't always differentiate, you know, between software, firmware, hardware. In the end, the customer, our customers, they don't ask for, to buy software from us. They have asked solutions to their problems, and to, if that goes into a machinery or into their operations, we solve it with hardware or with software, but normally it's the combination of the two. That's when the magic happens. So this is the, for me, the main part, how do we solve customer problems, with very solid, reliable hardware that never fails?
But on top of it, you need very good software or firmware. That is kind of the brain of a solution at ABB. So it's the combination of the two that really matters. So if you look at in our M&A deals, both of the past, but I think also what you will see in the future, it will be more of these small, maybe mid-size, deals that is adding new capabilities to existing strong ABB offering. That is when we are able to make a real value creation deal out of it. So you will not see us making big moves in the software space, because I don't think it really fits with us and our strategy or our philosophy.
And that shows that the path that we have chosen, and I think it has served us well, and that's also the feedback I get when I talk with customers, and for me, that's kind of the decisive factor for these decisions.
Sean McLoughlin — Director, HSBC
Thank you. Very clear. And the second question for you, Morten, just thinking about your footprint, I mean, your first view of the kind of the group's footprint. Are you right size now for your growth targets? I mean, M&A aside, you know, I understand obviously the need to reduce on the M&A side, but I mean, are we in need to increase CapEx significantly in other areas over the next one to two years? Or do you see it organic really as being the key growth driver there?
Morten Wierod — CEO, ABB
We have already communicated quite large investment, especially in North America and but also with India. Those are two areas where you will see allocational CapEx more to serve in Mexico and the U.S. to support the especially the U.S. market and the big investments ongoing there, so that we can support that strong demand. In data centers is one but also in the utility space and the whole industrial build-up based on the U.S. for U.S. initiative or and how the industry is developing. But also for India, which has been a growth market for us at ABB, moving up the ranks. I know that today number five, but I think in a few years India will be our third largest market.
So of course there we're also expanding capacity, so we're able to deliver on that very strong growth momentum, more than double-digit many years in a row now, so that becomes also a very key market. So those are two areas of organic or CapEx allocation that we will do in addition to keeping the wheels turning in all our units around the world, which is you need a constant investment in automation to drive productivity. That is for me, this the one big change in transformation is a bit more of a sign for me of a failure. You should do constant investment into automation, you know, cost out every year. That's how you stay competitive. That's how you can also drive performance in all these business lines and division over time.
Ann-Sofie Nordh — Head of Investor Relations, ABB
Okay.
Morten Wierod — CEO, ABB
Thank you.
Ann-Sofie Nordh — Head of Investor Relations, ABB
I see time is flying here, so we'll have a final question from, and I assume two, from Jonathan Mounsey at BNP Paribas. Jonathan, are you there?